Hey guys,
A very close friend of mine is deploying to Afghanistan in a few months. I'm getting him a birthday/deployment present in the form of a battle belt, but I also want to get him a lot of insight on how to run this thing really well. Will you help me help my brother out?
I didn't post this in https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/warbelt-setups.75/ thread because I wanted this to be more in depth and specific to some one running a crew served weapon, specifically the 249/240. I couldn't find too much information online, though I haven't finished reading through
TC 3 - 22.68, TC 3 - 22.249 & TC 3 - 22.240 yet. I'll be checking litefighter later also and sharing anything useful here.
Crew Weapons TC: http://www.combatindex.com/store/field_man/sample/fm_3-22_68.pdf
249 TC: https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3242_TC 3-22x249 FINAL WEB.pdf
240 TC: https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3182_TC 3-22x240 FINAL WEB 1.pdf
Heads up, I have minimal experience with these weapon systems and their employment. I am aware of their operating system and manual of arms, but I wouldn't say I'm familiar with it either. I'm coming here with a very open, but inexperienced mind. So, break it down barney style please. AROTC units usually never get these, unless they borrow it from a NG unit nearby and that's generally only a 249 with a single 200 round drum because of the cost of ammunition. I don't want to this thread to become too focused on employment though. More specifically about the belt/ammo carry system and methodology during vehicles, dismounted patrols, comfort and, of course, combat. There are a few reasons for this specific thread:
1. Most AR aren't running a pistol. This immediately changes the weight balance and perspective of most stuff you'll see being advised for battle belts.
2. Their ammunition carriers aren't magazines, so it's again rather unique from normal setups, requiring unique resources.
3. I wanted a dedicated place on the internet for unit SMEs to find and use on this specific subject.
Goals in no particular order:
1. Narrow down the belt choices to a definitive 1-3 gun belts as the best. Maybe: Lighweight, Hot weather, Padded/ballistic. Potentially consolidate to 2 belts.
2. Narrow down the suspender/PC attachment choices to 1-2 as the best.
3. Preference ammo to be carried by the AR to consolidate it allowing better freedom of maneuver within teams
taking away from their capability either. Freedom of maneuver, i.e. the AG/Rifleman doesn't have to take cover as close to the AR or stay there as long if actions can be better executed or must be executed from a different location. Such as, maybe not dragging someone for TCCC to the AR's chosen cover, but one closer to the casualty because the AR has the ammo necessary already on them. Again, this is without detracting from the ARs capability.
I can potentially see how the 3rd point is controversial. Please be patient with me, again, I'm very inexperienced with the employment of these specific systems. I mean...
crewbased weapons....it's in the name. I can absolutely see the potential that I'm dead wrong on that point. Please be detailed and deliberate in your description as to why. This is where and how I see employment of the systems coming into this thread: When it
directlyaffects how ammunition/belt and so forth is set up.
4. Establish a few excellent standard set ups for a 249/240B battle belt/PC combo.
A. Maximum capacity, within reason, with currently available kit. Listed below is a set up for ~1750 rounds of 5.56 link. A MOLLE Ruck stuffed full of nothing, but 200 round drums just isn't reasonable.
B. Good Middle ground, how to carry 1000 - 1200 rounds of 5.56 link.
C. Maximum Maneuverability with 600 - 800 rounds of 5.56 link.
If the round counts to achieve A, B & C should be adjusted or improved, please mention it below. Provide a solution as well please.
Principles in no particular order:
1. Keep it lightweight. Obligatory "Ounces = lbs" statement.
2. No movement of the belt in fast, sharp movement over time if possible. Keep the placement of attached items repeatable and comfortable.
3. Maximize comfort to reduce fatigue and distraction.
4. Inner/Outer belt.
5. Blast protection provided.....maybe....more on that later. Looking at that Crye blast belt and Tyr tactical MAB series specifically. If it can be had with no detriment... then it's a no brainer.
6. Combine with Suspenders. Looking for that best combination here to maximize the effect of weight distribution.
7. The belt shouldn't be too tall. This will interfere with a PC and thus lead to discomfort and distraction.
8. The inner belt will not have a buckle to avoid "double buckling" and causing discomfort and unnecessary noise.
Principles to be sorted in no particular order:
1. Does lumbar support/taller in the center back help? If so, at what general weight? I know this will be a range depending on body type.
2. At what general weight range is solid padding necessary? Again, will depend on body type.
3. Does attaching the belt to the PC work better than having suspenders run underneath? It's less weight, but idk. I have no experience with it. Worried it could reduce the torso's lateral or rotational maneuverability. That could make vehicle operations suck more.
Acronyms explained for lurkers:
PC - Plate Carrier
AR - Automatic Rifleman.
AG - Assistant Gunner.
TCCC - Tactical Combat Casualty Care.
Side plug: This was a fantastic modcast, much watch.
RSTA - Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Target Acquisition. You're generally very outnumbered and working in small groups. May not have indirect fire priority with coordinating missions, so you can have a really bad day, very quickly if you're decisively engaged. Generally, these missions are assigned to Cav Scout units as their training is specifically geared towards it.
Different Belts to discuss. Sorted from general shorter to taller / who makes it / non ballistic to some ballistic rating:
Shuto from Ronin Tactics
https://www.ronintactics.com/store/p181/Shūto_Belt_.html
Assault Belt System from AWS
https://awsin.com/products.asp?id=164
God this website sucks. At least it's secured...looking at you STI and Tyr. It's 2019, grow up.
Apparently, AWS manufactures the Ronin Belts also, but with a greater lead time.
This was mentioned in this thread: https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/warbelt-setups.75/page-4
I believe it may have been in the video by @Joe _K, I just don't want to rewatch to make sure.
Ares Gear Belt, used by Roland currently per his last video/discussion on the topic available outside of Patreon.
https://www.aresgear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=100_116_120
That's reason enough to give it a good look.
Storm Rider. Again, never heard of it before the Show Off Thread.
https://www.stormridergear.com/collections/tactical
The Megindjord gets cool points for having the medieval-like extra belt hanging, even if it's less useful than a cobra buckle. Brings "old school" and "Respect the classics" to a whole new level.
Brokos Belt from Viking Tactics
https://www.skdtac.com/Viking-Tactics-Battle-Belt-VTAC-Brokos-Belt-p/vkg.510.htm
Some specific info from Ivan at Kit Badger talking about his Caped Crusader days:
Ivan mentions it moves around, but is much more breathable then our next item.
Not sure which specific item Ivan is referring to here.
https://www.attackpak.com/collections/belts-and-frames
Breathability should matter a lot. In cold weather, a more or less breathable belt wouldn't make too much difference I humbly think. In the heat however, it could really make a difference in comfort.
Direct Action Gear
https://us.directactiongear.com/mosquito-modular-belt-sleeve#AGR
Never heard of them before, but were mentioned in the Show Off Thread.
HSGI's
https://www.highspeedgear.com/hsgi/33SLB-33SLB.html
I think the laser-grip is more sticky than the duty-grip or sure-grip. I don't know though, I'm not too familiar with their line. If someone could help here, that would be awesome.
Ballistic Belts:
Tyr Tactical - Warning, this site is unsecure. Grow up Tyr, it's 2019. It's pathetic, honestly.
http://www.tyrtactical.com/products/list/Accessories-protective-equipment/
http://www.tyrtactical.com/products/list/Accessories-protective-equipment/
Crye Precision
https://www.cryeprecision.com/armor-equipment/belts
Their blast belts, low and high as well as their other options of course.
If you know of a different belt that should be mentioned, please link it and discuss. I tried to capture all the big ones, but I probably missed a few.
Suspender systems:
I did not include the condor outdoors suspender for being excessively bulky. If a suspender system is otherwise not mentioned, I'm just not aware of it atm.
Crye Precision
Suspenders - https://www.cryeprecision.com/ProductDetail/accb4s22000_suspenders
PC attachment - https://www.cryeprecision.com/ProductDetail/blc03902000_chassis-stkss-adapter
HSGI's high speed, low drag
https://www.highspeedgear.com/hsgi/high-speed-low-drag-suspenders-95HSS0.html
VTAC Suspenders
https://www.vikingtactics.com/product-p/vtac-ss.htm
I was at first turned away from these with the lack of padding. But, I realized a user can 1. add padding. 2. keeping it so low profile could make it much more comfortable under a PC.
If someone has an additional suspender solution, please mention it.
Drag Handle:
I, humbly, think drag handles are very important and should be attached to the belt to grab as low on the body as possible to make extraction faster and safer for everyone involved. Multiple Options listed below.
This is a DIY version from DARCI.
https://www.lightfighter.net/fileSe...358/fodoid/61551397560078353/DARC CASEVAC.pdf
Spiritus made version with DARCI input.
https://www.spiritussystems.com/recovery-handle/
Some forum members have noted that it is subpar to the DIY version.
Uses and reasoning behind a drag handle discussed on pages 2, 3 and 4 in between other discussions.
https://primaryandsecondary.com/for...-lightweight-plate-carrier-set-up.6114/page-2
Mention of Spiritus option being subpar on page 3.
If someone has additional input on the drag handle, please share it.
Reference/Inspiration:
https://www.quora.com/How-much-ammo-does-automatic-rifleman-equiped-with-M249-carry
This was the smartest thing I have found so far, as well the best reference that directly addressed the issue.
The follow on comments were meh, general and not too intriguing. Below the set up is quoted
"I carried a 200 round drum in the gun and one on each hip. On my chest I had four pouches for the soft canvas 100 round “nut sacks” and if loaded meticulously they could hold 126 rounds in the pouch and an additional 10 rounds from the pouch draped over the top (its 10 rounds from the pouch opening to being properly seated on the feed tray of the m249, so I maximized my space and ammo capacity.) This brings my round count to 1144 between the rounds on my armor and in the gun… Add 3 more drums and a spare barrel in an assault pack and it brought me to 1744 (rounds)" - John Grasso, Jan 27, 2017 on Quora.
This is a pretty high round count set up if you include the assault pack's 3 drums. Mr. Grassos later details that he was involved in RSTA work in a platoon of ~18ish people. Not a normal situation for everyone employing the 249, but not unheard of either. This is the reason behind there being multiple excellent load outs. To achieve different mission tasks.
S/O to:
@2000XJclassic
@runningwolf
@user12358
@BooneGA
@Wake27
@chasnojm
@TerminalEffect
For helping me on the 2019 Lightweight Plate Carrier set up:
https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/2019-lightweight-plate-carrier-set-up.6114/
I did tell you all I was gonna ask your help on a battle belt set up and thank you in advance for your help, even if it's only just a view. If you know of anyone else on the forum that could contribute, please "@" them here. I'd love for this get a lot of good discussion to produce a good final idea that we can hear feedback on before the end of the year. From there, hopefully it goes on to be shared and help people better run the 249 and 240 systems moving forward.
